Ep 163: Your Course Isn’t Failing; Your Onboarding Is | Guest Expert Jasmine Jonte

We map the new course landscape and show how trust, focus, and thoughtful support turn a crowded niche into an advantage. From onboarding that builds safety to AI-driven upsells, we share practical ways to raise completion and profit without bloat.

• market shift post‑2020 and AI making course creation easier
• trust recession, proof of expertise, and honest limits
• picking support structures that match ideal clients
• designing for focus with missions, tracks, and tools
• engagement loops, reactivation prompts, and peer recognition
• built‑in upsells, AI agents, and shareable wins
• common mistakes: non‑actionable content and weak onboarding
• mini courses for quick wins vs signature transformations
• long game mindset and stair‑step offers before self‑paced
• how to work with Jasmine and where to find her

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Jasmine Jonte helps experts turn braindumps into world-class programs! Her Done-For-You Course Creation agency takes care of everything - from the big picture promise down to the last worksheet download. They're on a mission to make learning simple and fun for 10 Million students while saving 100+ hours for every course creator they partner with!
Coupling her teaching experience with business savvy and management skills, you’ll want her to do the heavy lifting when building or upgrading your online programs!

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasminejonte/

Website: Cre8tion.co

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@JasmineJonteCRE8TION

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Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome And Today’s Focus
• 2:50 The Course Market Shift Since 2020
• 4:47 Trust Recession And Real Expertise
• 7:17 Choosing The Right Support Structures
• 13:14 Designing For Focus, Not Volume
• 17:54 Engagement Loops And Re-Activation
• 21:24 Profit Levers And Built-In Upsells
• 24:54 AI Agents As Smart Upsell Guides
• 28:14 Common Course Design Mistakes
• 30:54 Onboarding That Builds Safety
• 34:54 Mini Courses Vs Signature Programs
• 37:54 The Long Game: Resilience Over “Passive”
• 41:14 Stair-Step Offers Before Self-Paced

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:50

Podcast that helps B2B service businesses do more with less. Learn lean, actionable, organic marketing strategies you can implement today. No fluff, just powerful growth tactics at work. Ready to scale smarter? Hit that subscribe button and start growing your business with tiny marketing.

SPEAKER_00: 1:10

Hello, audience. I am nice to see you. Uh my name's Jasmine Jonte. I a have a done for you course creation agency. So we work with experts, authors, speakers, coaches, consultants, entrepreneurs, and we pull the wisdom out of their brain and put it into world-class programs. Um and that can look like a lot of different things, but that's who that's who I am. That's what I do. And at the heart of everything is um teaching, background and teaching, and also just creating amazing experiences for clients and for people. All about the wow factor.

SPEAKER_02: 1:50

You know? Yeah. And that's so important right now in particular. So before I cue up my first question, because I always do that, I'm like, okay, I have a thousand questions, but I didn't even tell them what the topic is yet. So we're talking today about how to become the go-to course creator in your specific niche. Before we get into that though, can you tell me like what is changing right now? Because I know that there's a shift in this course creator world. So what did it look like before? And what does it look like in 2026?

SPEAKER_00: 2:25

Hmm, I don't know when before is. Let's just say before 2020. So okay, let's go there. So before 2020, um it was a lot more challenging to create programs. There was no chat GPT. You had to hit every single keystroke of every single thumbnail uh copy piece. And like it was just a lot more challenging and less people tried because of that. Yeah. Um, and then we entered 2020, people had more time, people were at home. And so like everyone had to pivot online. Um, even like if you look at, you know, Tony Robbins, a guy who'd been doing in-person events only forever, pivoted online and had like 10x or more the reach and impact that he did just when he was doing his in-person training. So everyone went online and now suddenly everyone has a course. Everyone's like, oh my gosh, it's so saturated in my niche. Um, and then recently in the past like 18 months, two years, then ChatGPT came along. So it got even easier to develop an amaz a program. And um what that means is now there's a lot of noise, and there's a lot of people out there who have not so great training programs. Um, and so we're on a mission to combat that, right?

SPEAKER_02: 3:56

Yeah. I'm excited to hear like how you're doing that because yes, a lot more people are trying to build courses. And a lot there's also like the trust factor that so many people put out programs in 2020 who weren't qualified to do it. And then we're like, then we pulled back a lot more than we needed to because we were like, can we trust anybody? Can we trust anybody? So there's that trust recession. But let's let's talk about that. How do you how do you build that trust with your audience so they'd feel comfortable with you? And is it all digital assets or do you mix and match?

SPEAKER_00: 4:47

Well, if we think about building trust with our audience, I think the easiest thing to or the easiest question to ask to reflect on that is who are the people that you trust on the internet and why? Right. Um and I think part of that is showcasing your expertise that you truly are an expert. Because like you said, there's a lot of people out there who are unqualified who have no business building the program that they're building and trying to sell and market the program they're trying to sell and market. Um, and then on the flip side, there's experts out there who have every right in the world to be teaching what they know online and yet they have imposter syndrome. Yeah. So it's so many. So it's really about like having an honest moment with yourself and saying, like, am I really an expert in this? Um, and kind of removing the emotion from it, looking at the the success stories and the client results that you have, and then from that place, sharing that online. So you're showcasing your expertise so the audience trusts it. Um, you know, I think that's that's huge. And another element of uh of having your audience trust you is just being real and honest with them. Like, just like if you were serving someone in like a professional services capacity or um an agency capacity or whatever it is, you wouldn't sell them something that you couldn't deliver on. So be honest with your audience of like if you if there is something that is the limit or the boundary of what you can support them with, then like say it. Like, don't be afraid to say it.

SPEAKER_02: 6:25

And it's honestly like a relief to hear someone say, like, that's not my skill set, like and point to a different direction, because then you know what they are sharing. They actually do know if they're comfortable talking about what they don't. So we have the trust factor, and then what about because you mentioned AI, the digital versus in like the mix of digital in-person, one-to-one contact. How do we determine that?

SPEAKER_00: 7:05

Uh yeah, there's a lot of questions that you gotta ask to figure out how much uh I call them like support structures you want to have inside of the program that you're offering. There are in-person struct support structures and there are uh virtual support structures. There is one-on-one, there is group, there is peer support. Like it can look like a lot of different things, and you have to consider what's the result that you're trying to get people or you're trying to help people achieve inside of your program. And what's that ideal client? I mean, it's so simple, it's so basic. But um, I remember like a couple years ago, I was trying to do this retreat offer because it sounded really fun to me and it sounded sexy. Like I called it the course in a week retreat. And wouldn't it be amazing if you could come to Phoenix, Arizona? We'll put you up in a beautiful Airbnb, like so aesthetic, and we get your course done in a week. And no one freaking bought it. And I was like, what do you mean? Like this support structure is amazing. And I was right off vacation. Vacation, come on, we're gonna have like the whole thing, the catered meals, and like I really like made it exclusive in Lux and all the things, and it was like a reasonable price point because I was betaing it. So I was like, Yeah, even if I don't like make a ton of profit on this, like I just want to prove it out. No one bought, no one bought, and it was because I picked the support structure that I wanted as at the time, like a 30-year-old, you know, woman, double income, no kids, whatever. And most of my ideal clients have kids in, you know, who are like in elementary and middle school. And so hard. And they were like, I this is not the support structure I need, right? And so I think that it it often comes down to like, what is your ideal client want? Because everyone just goes usually to the if they're having like some kind of group program, they'll say, like, we're gonna do a call once a week. Well, does your ideal client want to show up to a call once a week?

SPEAKER_02: 9:04

Oh my gosh, let me raise my hand right now because I do not for accoaching any day of the week over in like having to be live on something.

SPEAKER_00: 9:18

Uh-huh. 100%. And like there's other people who they love, like the weekly, it's gonna make me show up. I get to put it on my calendar. Like, there are avatars that really enjoy that and they like that kind of structure and routine. And so at the end of the day, it's like, what does your client want? And also, like, what are you willing to do? You know, uh, especially like with the async work, you gotta have boundaries on it by telling your clients, like, I'm gonna get back to you within 24, 48, however many business hours, right? So letting them know what they can expect from you so you're not hog tied to Slack. Um, but it's really, I think it really comes down to like asking them what they want and what do you think they need to get the result.

SPEAKER_02: 10:02

Yeah, that is such a great point. Like, survey the people who are interested in your program and find out what structure they'd like. Because I mean, to your point, I would love to go to a retreat. I've gone to one the entire time I've owned my business, and it was so difficult because I was coordinating my kids stuff at the same time. I was like, I can't do it. As much as as fun as it is, I can't do it.

SPEAKER_00: 10:30

Yeah. It's just a it's just you gotta know what they need and what they want and what they what they can do.

SPEAKER_02: 10:35

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. So let's talk about inside of the program. How does the design of the program impact the one, the success of the students, but also the profitability.

SPEAKER_00: 11:52

Yeah. So in terms of the success of the students, this happens a lot, is people think more is more. And that is not that could not be further from the truth in the land of TikTok and Instagram reels. Uh people don't people don't want to know everything they want to know, the everything you know. They just want to know what are the simple strategic things I need to do in what order to get said result. They want to do as little as possible.

SPEAKER_02: 12:24

That is absolutely true. And I experienced it myself.

SPEAKER_00: 12:28

Yeah. So I think it's like that that's really the one of the benefits of program design and like this skill of learning, like learning experience design, curriculum design, it is actually a skill. Just like copy is a skill and sales is a skill and podcast editing is a skill. Like it's a skill, and a lot of people don't realize that. Um, but when you know that skill, you know how to scaffold students from where they are right now to where they want to go in the easiest, most effective route possible. Um yeah, so more is not more, less is more. Make it as simple and easy as possible. Let's pause right there because I have to tell you a story.

SPEAKER_02: 13:10

Oh, yeah, bring it on. When I started betaing tiny marketing club, I put all of the content they would need inside of it. And I started it off with a strategic spark. So I'd sit down with them one-on-one and I would tell them exactly what they needed to do, but they had access to everything. It they raised their hand, at least. They told me, they were like, I'm distracted because I know what I'm supposed to do. It's right here on this sheet. But then I'm like, well, that looks cool, and that looks cool, and that looks cool. So they would bounce around and they couldn't complete anything. And that's when I redesigned everything. So they're doing a mission in four weeks. This is what you need to accomplish, and these are the only things that you need to look at. And then I hide everything else.

SPEAKER_00: 13:59

Powerful blood they told me though. Yeah, yeah. It's like you you created a forcing function for focus.

SPEAKER_02: 14:06

Yeah, yes, exactly. I was attracting a lot of people who have ADHD and creating those containers in a way where you had no choice but to focus on that one thing made it a lot easier for them.

SPEAKER_00: 14:19

Yeah. And I I think that's something that most people in most niches uh need to consider is how do I help my students focus on the 20 that creates the 80% of results. And there are program design ways to do that. Like you said, is like you hit all the other content and they only got access to a certain amount of time. You can also do choose your own adventure uh programs where it's like there's a quiz or there's something, there's an AI agent or something at the beginning that kind of puts them in like a track. If you I like that idea. And then so even though you can have people who come in um with different challenges or different unique uh things about them, you can kind of personalize it. And then they feel like, oh, like this is this is just for me, but without it needing to be a one-on-one consultation call, right? Yeah, that's yeah, super brilliant. And maybe I'll I'll take that for for later. Take it, take it. Um, so yeah, there's program design ways to create focus. And then the other thing is like just reminding your students, like so many people forget just because they bought something, just because they bought your program doesn't mean they're gonna engage with it. You know, yeah, like they buy it and they log in, but are you prompting them to log back in? Like, are you sending them engagement emails? Oh, could you run an ad just to your client list to remind them to do their homework that week? I mean, like, cheapest ad ever, you know what I'm saying? But like it increases the results that people get and it shows that you really care. So really smart. I never would have thought of that. Yeah. It's like you know, but you know exactly which email, you know? And you can do fun things like I see you on Instagram. Yes, it's your coach calling, and I see you on Instagram, and you need to stop the scroll because remember, this week is about whatever.

SPEAKER_02: 16:14

Oh my god. I love that. That is a cute and brilliant idea.

SPEAKER_00: 16:20

Yeah. So remember, like they're gonna get they're gonna get unfocused, they're gonna be distracted. How can you pull their attention back to where you want it by interrupting their their thought patterns wherever they are, whether that's email or text message campaigns or push notifications or ads. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 16:40

So smart. I just started within the last couple of months putting together workflows because they were getting weekly emails on what to do, but now I have workflows where like it automatically DMs them like, are you are you working on this right now? Ping me when you're ready to talk about it. Which platform are you in?

SPEAKER_00: 17:00

Heartbeat. Okay. I don't know heartbeat, but uh, I don't know well, I should say. I know of it. We haven't built on there yet. Um, but I love things like that, like bulk actions or um, and also on the flip side, right? Not just like connecting with them when they haven't logged in for seven days and that's the workflow trigger. But when they complete something, having a DM that says, like, congratulations, you just unlocked this thing that you didn't know you were gonna get. Or like giving, oh my gosh, this was this is crazy for course completion, is especially if you have like a cohort or if you have a tight kind of knit community, you can give them shout outs in the community for completing the module of the week because you can see their completion. Oh, yeah, that's a good idea. So it's like small little touches like that can go a long way. Positive peer pressure.

SPEAKER_02: 17:51

Yeah, yeah. Okay, so those are some design elements that can make sure that your your clients are successful in there. Now, what design elements would lead to higher profitability?

SPEAKER_00: 18:07

Really good question. Um, so we call them moneymakers. And I like the name already. We call them moneymakers. The key here is to decide what you want to upsell. Um, if we think about you know, the three ways to grow a business, there's more clients, there's increasing the average transaction value, and there's increasing referrals or retention. So when we think about what are we upselling, um, that's one way to increase like the lifetime value of a client. So they didn't just buy your mini course, but they also bought your signature course, or they also opted in for coaching. And you can build those into a program in a lot of different ways. You can literally talk about them in your videos, you can add them to workbooks, you can add them to portal copy, you can add them to sidebar buttons. Like there's a lot of ways you can talk about your other offers naturally inside of your programs from a place of not like go buy my more, go buy more shit now. It's not like that, but it's like, yeah, you know, especially like, oh, I love telling client stories. So for example, I have a mini course and Sarah, you're my mini course. Okay. And, but you also bought my one-on-one coaching. And so in the mini course, I tell your story and I'm like, oh my gosh, when Sarah, she she went through this module and it completely shifted the way she did X, Y, Z. I'm so like, we're so happy for her. And it shifted so much for her. She actually joined our one-on-one coaching and she got Y result too. Isn't that crazy? And then you just kind of move into what's next. So you're like naturally opening loops and planting seeds throughout the whole journey with the assumption that they're joining the next thing that you have available. Oh, that's really smart.

SPEAKER_02: 19:59

Yeah. I do that in like workshops where people aren't part of my program yet. Offer nodding, talking about like if one of my clients is also at that workshop bringing it up, but I haven't thought to do it that way. That's really smart. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 20:16

Um you can so you can do that, right? Like you can embed it into videos, into workbooks, into portal, into all of that, that good stuff. Um, but you can also do things that support um the other ways to grow a business. So that's like LTV. But can you do things like adding a really easy Instagram shareable celebration so that now they're posting your stuff to the internet about your program, which increases referrals. Like Mar, there's like a whole ton of things you can do, but it all is about strategy. It's like, what are you upselling? When in the program are you talking about it? And how is it being delivered? Um, so you gotta look at it from the it's hard to do this retroactively. You kind of have to do it when you build the program.

SPEAKER_02: 21:09

Yeah, definitely. For most of those for sure. I was just thinking about how it would work with your the tracks that you were talking about earlier. Like if they were to take a quiz to determine what track they were in, um, you would naturally know what track would make the most sense for that person next. So you can have an upsell, at least in heartbeat, this is a possibility where it pops up for that specific group, showing them like this is what your next logical track would be.

SPEAKER_00: 21:38

Yeah, there's um, so I work a lot in circle and I find this works the best there. But same vibes is we have AI agents that help support students going through a particular program. And that agent is trained on our upsells. So when a client in the with the agent says a certain thing, that the agent will respond with, that's amazing, like answers question. Have you considered joining the certification program? So, like starting to leverage things like AI agents, which again can be natural upsell vehicles, and that's independent of the course content. So, like, think about one of our clients, they've had a this business for 15 years and they have, I don't know, 10 or 15 offers that all sell like every month. And so we're not gonna redo some of those offers. We're gonna keep the courses as they are, but we're adding AI agents that are now trading the upsell. So even if in the program itself there's no upsells included, the AI agent is starting to weave that into the the client journey. So smart.

SPEAKER_02: 22:44

So smart. Do you know Brie Lever? Yeah, okay. I was gonna say you guys need to talk because she knows the community side, you do the course creator side. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 22:57

I'm glad you know each other. She's awesome. She's awesome. Yeah, I think she's very like heavy into the community. We do a little community stuff, uh, but we're not like we definitely don't do management. Like, I definitely don't do any more like compliment each other, yeah. It's more like offer strategy and how that weaves into community and stuff and how programming works with it, but yeah, no.

SPEAKER_02: 23:20

Management, stay out of that. I don't blame you. Bree has a gift. Yeah, absolutely. So when people are building out their courses, what do you see as the most common mistakes? You come in and you're like, oh no.

SPEAKER_00: 23:42

Oh yes. The oh no factor happens quite a bit when we're doing our audits. Um one thing is they don't make their program actionable. So they're just like sharing content, but they're not so there's no outcome. Yeah, they're and everything we do with program design is all reverse engineered. So, like if you take it on the highest level, what's the result? What's the transformation A to B that they get from this course? Okay, now what are the milestones, the milestone results they should hit along the way? That's like your module level results. And then you break down and you have a lesson level result. What are the lesson level results that when they do these things, it really relates to the module levels and then the modules relate to the bit, right? Yeah. Most people are just like, yeah, I think I should just kind of spitball and share, share ideas and content, but they're not telling them what to do. And then kind of attached to that is they're not giving them resources to make it easy to do. Yeah. So, you know, especially in the world of AI, like, come on now. Like, we got AI coach clones, we got custom GPTs, we got dashboards, we got vibe coding. Like, there are so many things you can do to make it easy as pie to get results. And um it's just, I don't I don't really have like a lot of um what's the word I'm looking for? Not empathy. I just think it kind of comes across as lazy at this point if you're not providing things like that because it's easier to do.

SPEAKER_02: 25:11

It's easy to do, and it's so helpful. Like the favorite, my favorite program that I've been in has been it's basically what you were talking about, where like there's they have checked like custom GPTs for all of the things that I need to do on a regular basis with them that makes it so much easier. And then I have async coaching with them. So it's like the best of both worlds, the easiest way to win.

SPEAKER_00: 25:40

Yeah, totally. And that's how we designed our like I have a program, and that's how we designed it, like for that reason. Like everything has its own little custom GPT that's trained on the 120 courses that we've built, right? And like what we know works. And uh, you know, you got to train your people that just cause, and I'm sure you with with the the agents and things that you're using inside of that program, it doesn't give you perfect first draft, but no, it's better than a blank page.

SPEAKER_02: 26:07

Yeah, yeah. And there's a lot of onboarding questions that get you like 99% of the way to a good first draft. Yeah, totally. Okay, I love that. And is there anything else that you're seeing in programs that are like, why are you why? Why? Why are we doing this? Um oh gosh, can we talk about onboarding? That is the first thing that came into my mind because if you have bad onboarding, which I have had before, I'm instantly out. I'm like, actually, I regret this decision. Yes, let's talk about it.

SPEAKER_00: 26:45

Oh yeah, oh gosh. Yeah, I think that when you the easiest way to check if your onboarding is decent is think about everything that you put on the sales page and do they know where to find everything that you put on the sales page within their first uh email touch point and their first video touch point. Like such a good point. It's really not hard. And the thing is, if you don't give them their bonuses right away, that's fine. Like there are plenty of programs I have built that they have to reach a certain milestone to activate a bonus because up until that point, like to our point earlier, it's a distraction. So we're forcing focus by not giving them access to all the content, which is fine, but tell them when they will get access to it. So it's not a question I'll reply, is like, where are you? Yes, yes, or or you're not, and you're just getting people who are asking for a refund or just piecing out and never logging in again. Yeah. So so that's a big piece. And then the other thing to consider about upsells or I'm sorry, onboarding is are you trying to upsell them from the jump? Because I have seen this unfortunately. And people it's like, especially if it's like a lower ticket membership or like a lower ticket masterclass or something, and someone paid, I don't know, 50 bucks for it, in the first email, they're talking about their signature course. Yeah, coaching.

SPEAKER_02: 28:19

Or even on the thank you page. Oh my gosh, on the thank you page.

SPEAKER_00: 28:23

And it is my goodness, like the only thing you want them to feel in the very beginning is like your excitement for them and your congratulation. Like they they want to feel congratulated and celebrated and safe. Like they found a person who's got me and my problem is gonna be solved. Not I just got duped by someone who wants more of my money. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 28:48

The immediate upsell on the next page and then in the email, and then the series of emails is too much because no one even got a win in that short of a period of time.

SPEAKER_03: 29:00

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00: 29:00

Yeah, totally. So onboarding. And I would say, like, if you are listening to this and you don't have a course, go look at your services onboarding too, because you might have that same problem. We help people sometimes with their like client success journey. And what does that look like inside of a service-based business? Oftentimes there's a curriculum connected to that as well. But it's like even services businesses. I feel like most people do a poor job with their onboarding.

SPEAKER_02: 29:30

Yeah. I worked with someone who had the most amazing onboarding that I started referring her to everyone just because I loved her onboarding. I'm like, can't go wrong. What did she do that was so amazing? Well, so she was a web designer, but from the very beginning, I was able to one look at the proposal. She used Ubsado for this, but the proposal to contract to pay right away. And then I automatically got an email telling me everything I should expect with like an onboarding um like milestones that I need to go through in order to be ready for that project. And I was like, that's so smart. I'm stealing all of this.

SPEAKER_00: 30:17

Yep. I the visual, so we talk about frameworks a lot, is like it's the visual for your predictable, repeatable process to transformation inside of courses, right? It's like, what's your method in a growth? Yeah. And I am a firm believer that every service-based business should also have that for their clients. So they know here's the phases that you're gonna go through. Here's the touch points at each of these phases, here's what we need from you. And um, yeah, same thing is like people will often say, Hey, can we just use your onboarding? Can we just do what you did for my onboarding? And I literally think that's the linchpin is like this visual that people it just grounds them into again, what's happening and when and what do they need to do?

SPEAKER_02: 31:02

Yeah, that just remind me. I worked with a different web company. This was for myself this time, the other person I hired for someone else. But they had during their onboarding, they had like every milestone I had to hit before we worked together, but also like I it was on my calendar. Like, I need to turn in my copy by this date. And if we don't, this we'll have to move it back two weeks. So I had like a clear understanding of everything I had to do to be able to keep my day.

SPEAKER_00: 31:33

Yeah. Really smart. Put it on the calendar. We with a lot of our done with you clients, we'll say that too. We'll be like, okay, so we need your outline by this day. When are you gonna do it? Like, pull up your calendar right now. Show me where it's time blocked. Do you have? X amount of hours time blocked. Okay. Now put in your calendar when you're going to send it to me. Because they just need the hand holding sometimes. We're all have a million things going on and we need some direction.

SPEAKER_02: 31:59

And it's so easy to forget when you're in like deliverability wasteland and you're like, oh my God, I owe Jasmine my curriculum tomorrow. Yep. Been there. How important do you think community is when it comes to the course itself?

SPEAKER_00: 32:21

I think it depends again on ideal client and the result. So when I when we do like mini courses, our goal with a mini course is for someone to be able to log in, take it one time in like under an hour, log out, and never have to log in again. Like it's a specific, tangible result that they should be able to get after watching one time through the program. That's my goal with a mini course. Okay. With a signature course, that's something that takes more time. There might be feedback loops in there. It's inherently longer. So if we think about podcasting, a mini course is how to record your first episode. A signature course is how to launch your podcast in the top 50 of your category. So you can see the difference in transformation there. With the second one, I think community is usually important. This is the caveat on the ideal client. Some clients don't really want to be in a community related to your stuff, but they do want the async support. Um but I'd say I don't want to give it a sp like a specific number, um, but most can benefit from having some kind of community aspect, whether that's evergreen or cohort-based. That's good to know.

SPEAKER_02: 33:43

Okay. So when you're talking mini course, it's more of like you want to complete something in less than an hour. This is the thing. And when you're talking like a signature program, it's a transformation. It's like a loftier goal that you have to that you're working through. Yes. Okay. This was incredibly helpful. Is there anything else that you want the audience to know?

SPEAKER_00: 34:13

I would just say that the course creator journey requires commitment. Um, it's rare that I have a client come in and launch a program for the first time and hit the moon that they want to hit. So it is something that um it's a long game. And if you hold the vision and keep the vision and just don't give up, it will happen. Um and that not giving up, that resilience piece, is exactly what will keep you successful as you continue on in this world of more and more content creators coming on the scene. So yeah, resilience. Stick with it.

SPEAKER_02: 35:04

Yeah. Yeah. Earlier before we hit record, and I was talking about the consulting call I was on, they were talking about selling passive products.

SPEAKER_00: 35:16

Just knew I was gonna see an eye roll from there is nothing passive about this. No, everyone said, like, I'm so tired of these people on the internet saying, like, oh, oh, you can make passive income with a course. Like, there are there is active marketing activity happening in order to create passive income. Whether that active marketing activity is you paying someone to run and manage your ads account or doing it yourself, or there is some activity happening. It doesn't necessarily happen to need to happen by you, but to get from not doing, you know, just barely getting your course out there to then having a team that runs the whole business for you so that you don't have to be active, that is a huge, huge journey. There are many, many steps on that journey. So uh yeah, pause before you listen to the person who's like, you can sit on a beach and drink spicy margaritas and hear your PayPal ding. Like it doesn't quite happen like that. No, it doesn't.

SPEAKER_02: 36:18

I've been making courses since like 2015, and never once was I was that happening.

SPEAKER_00: 36:28

Yes. And here's the thing is some of those people saying that had some huge frickin' audience, and then they started to do that.

SPEAKER_02: 36:36

That I think is the biggest like problem that people people think that it's easy, but you need a massive audience when you're selling especially a low-ticket product.

SPEAKER_00: 36:51

Yeah, and you have to it's a personal brand play a lot of the time. You know, yeah, you need massive audience trust and you have so much trust built.

SPEAKER_02: 37:00

It takes a lot of work to get there. When I have people joining, because the people that come to the tiny marketing club, they're mainly doing services. They're solo consultants doing services. So when they come and they talk to me about like possibly wanting to move into a course, I was like, slow your roll. We're not there yet. You need to be at a point where you're so in demand that you're you can't take on anymore. And then we can talk about something like that.

SPEAKER_00: 37:28

And and here's the thing is normally you start with your one-on-one and then you move to like a group coaching or group consulting container before you move into the self-paced. Like people skip that step. They go straight from I want to go one-on-one to having a self-paced course. If you have the money from your one-on-one to then fund the marketing and like the ads and the development, you need a lot of ads to make that work. Yeah, like it can totally work. If you're like, I'm thinking of as like some lawyer clients or some dental clients, like really um high income earning services, like that's a possibility. But if you're a chiropractor or something, like who's who doesn't yield that same hourly rate, it's you you there you have to have this kind of middle group step to get some leverage on your time before then going self-paced.

SPEAKER_02: 38:15

Yeah, that's a good point too, because you're in that middle step, you're learning how to sell at scale, but on a mini version of it. So it's just like a baby step up.

SPEAKER_00: 38:28

Yeah. And you command a higher price point than just like a self-paced course because they get access to you. So yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_02: 38:34

Yes. You might end up just liking that. Who knows? Who knows? Um, how can people work with you and find you online?

SPEAKER_00: 38:44

Yeah, so you can find us uh at the website. It's www.creation. That's with an eight, c R-E-8-T-I-O-N.co. Um, and the eight is there because it does stand for creating um a program that can sell without requiring your time to do so, right? Without requiring your time to be in front of a client delivering for them. And eight is the number of abundance as well. So creation.co. Um and we largely do done for you program development for self-paced programs, group programs, events, masterminds, certifications, all that good stuff. And we also have some done with you support. So some of our clients prefer to learn the skills required to design programs, and we're like their sidekick who is giving them the yes and no on the assets that they create. So we've got a couple of options, but really, if you're in a place that you want to productize your expertise, we can help.

SPEAKER_02: 39:43

Awesome. I think that a lot of people here are gonna be interested in that. Um and you're is LinkedIn your primary social?

SPEAKER_00: 39:55

Uh, I actually post content on YouTube. Okay. But um, but I am active on LinkedIn in terms of like I check it. Let's see if I don't worry about it. I don't post my own content, but I check it.

SPEAKER_02: 40:09

If YouTube is your channel, that is where we will send people. Okay. This actually is also on YouTube. So people, a lot of people watch this show on YouTube. So we'll just make sure to link it right there in the description. Then they'll pop over to yours.

SPEAKER_00: 40:23

Hey, good to see you over there too.

SPEAKER_01: 40:26

You love all things tiny marketing. Head down to the show notes page and sign up for the wait list to join the tiny marketing club where you get to work one-on-one with me with trainings, feedback, and pop-up coaching that will help you scale your marketing as a B2B service business. So I'll see you over in the club.